Sunday, April 8, 2007

Re: Re:

Dear B,
You cannot give up halfway. That would not be Irish. I worked for sometime in a hospital in the East end of London which was heavily populated by the Cockney and the Irishmen. We were part of the oppressed minority who were looked down by the Oxbridge trained doctors because we did not speak the Queen's English. I am an Indian, who often had to interpret between the white men who did not understand each other. I got to admire the hardworking, hard drinking and hard living Irishmen. At that point I was only a Christian, not a regenerated one.
We are just now having problems with Billy Graham Association (BGA). Billy spoke at two consecutive Christmas's all over India on the TV. The Christians were asked to invite non-Christians to their homes to listen to Billy and get converted. Thousands, if not millions, of people listened to Billy and liked it. Now we asked BGA for a follow up so all these people can be discipled. Astonishingly the BGA said,"Nothing doing, as this will result in house churches, because the non-Christians will not go to a denominational church, which will upset the local pastors." Now according to some of us, all the harvest will be lost. But as far as BGA is concerned they have filed a report that seven million souls have been saved.
As far as Reinhardt Bonke is concerned I will not say much as I do not know much about Africa, but I am told that first of all, most of the people who are attending these mega shows are already Christians and this kind of emotional mass evangelism is resulting in a church that is a mile long and only an inch deep.
I have a very healthy respect for Anabaptists, many of whom were first generation Christians. They did not just talk, thousands went out as missionaries to distant lands to save souls and in the process gave their lives for their beliefs. I was a little sad that you looked down on the first generation Christians. My understanding is that all Christians are first generation Christians or at least regenerated Christians. There are no second or n'th generation X'tions. There are no fathers and grandfathers, only new born or born again Christians. The Heavenly Father has only sons and daughters and no grandchildren. It is the first generation Christians who are changing the world.
My problems is that the modern day pulpiteer insists on hogging all the time saying "Do not quench the Spirit" (1 Thes. 5:19). Unfortunately his understanding is that the guy standing on the pulpit is the only one led by the Spirit while others are just dumb spectators. This is the Nicolaitan church where Nicolas (dominating the Laos or conquering the laity) divided the church between "speaking brother" and the "listening brothers" by putting a pulpit as a great divide. Jesus hates this kind of structure and equates it with idolatry (Rev. 2:6,14,15). Jesus does not need pulpit performers but fishers of men.
The Biblical position is that when we gather together, everyone and I repeat, everyone, has the privilege to share a doctrine (teach), a revelation or a dream or a vision, prophecy or whatever, in the assembly I.e. who ever is led by the Spirit, which means men, women and children because we are family of God and in the family everyone has a right to speak (1 Cor. 14:26; 30,31; Eph. 2:19). This is where most of the quenching of the Spirit takes place in the traditional church because a monologuer takes over and presumes that the Spirit is speaking only through him. Nothing could be far from truth. This is why the Lord himself has given fivefold ministry equippers to his church so that the church does not have a lopsided development. (Eph. 4:11)
Dear Brian, this is not a debate and I am not trying to win a debate. I call this cross pollination where I am learning something and presumably you are also doing the same. After all, iron sharpens iron. Sorry for the sarcasm but sometimes it is a necessary tool for destabilizing strongly held paradigms. Anyway  no offence is meant as we are all colaborers in the Kingdom business.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 8:39 PM
Subject: Re:

Dear Victor,
Your venom and spleen are not wasted on me, of note was your false blessing that I should have a great time with my oodles of sermons.  Dripping sarcasm and disregard for what has gone before is evident.  I know your situation is different in India and I apologize for my ignorance and supposition to tell you how to manage.  A few examples before I go.  Rhienhard Bonnke an evangelist in East Africa who regularly preaches to audiences of over a million.  Over 6 million Converts since 1997.
Billy Graham 40 years of Preaching the Estimated 20 millions lives changed for Christ.  There are many others with similar numbers.  The falling away in "the Church" is not a fault of structure or organization but a sign of the times.   2Thess 2:3 tells us what will, and has started to happen.
Wm Carey was a translator in the main part, but also preached ,which by use of the pulpit makes him a heretic, and all the others I mentioned from Iraenus to Augustine to Luther to Billy Graham.
I wonder what that makes the hundreds of millions of converts who listened to the heretical pulpit sermons.  I wonder if this is the mind and spirit of Christ that inspires such thoughts and listens and quotes the Pope.  I come from a long list of Non-Conformists, Anabaptist many of whom were martyred by Rome and Elizabeth I.  The tradition they handed down I carry with me although I have never heard their pulpits called heresies.  Our dialogue has come to an end.  we have only achieved animosity and strife, and sarcasm and muted anger are spawned..  We will not change each others minds its seems.   I will not say further as it will be  deemed to be a sermon, I wish to end on a note of unity forgiveness and peace.  You have won, you are right and I am wrong, forgive and anger I have engendered in you, and forgive my presumption to intervene with  advice or doctrinal points of view.
As I stated before the great barrier to the truth is the presumption that you already possess 100% of it.
I obviously do not possess all of it. (No sarcasm intended)
A point of interest...I contacted 4 Church groups in Asia upon the request of Rad.  Three have contacted me for materials and Movies, Encyclopedias, Bible Programs, Commentaries, complete works of Wesley, Bunyan, Pink etc, maps, charts and audio teaching have been sent.  It seems they also are in need of these aids.  They have begged for more and I will assist in any and all ways I can.
I keep my offer open to you and beg any offence I have given be forgiven and withdraw all comments you find objectionable.  I will not email you again so you will be spared my "sermons", and if you want to contact me again do it through Rad, as the spirit we are producing in these emails is not one of brotherhood or the Spirit of Love.
We will have to agree to disagree and leave the rest to God.
May God shine His face upon you and bless you as you do His Perfect Will.
In the bonds of Calvary,



I will continue to pray for you and your House Church in Northern India that God will bless and protect it and bring glory to Himself through it.  I ask that you do the same for me.


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